audio set-up for beginners [continued]

[red_one]

If you aren't always there to watch your car, do set a filter. Depending on your amplifier's slope (it's usually a 12dB/octave slope), set it at 60hz or 50hz with 60hz being preferred on a 12dB/octave slope.

Any speaker can handle rolling down to 30hz or something probably. The problem lies with its sound output. If it's playing 30hz but you can't hear it, why bother playing that low -- you'll only stress your speakers. Same goes with whatever frequency it is. What you can't hear is of no use to you. Also, for those doing a low filter on the midbass, it's usually paired with EQ work. Because if you just pass your midbass at 50hz, sure.. you can hear it all the way down to 50hz (since it's still -0dB at that stage), but you won't appreciate the 50hz since your hearing is less efficient at bass levels. That's the reason why people throw like +3dB of EQ and why there's no such thing as a nightclub playing 90 decibels of EDM.

the point in question here is that the speaker can handle 43 Hz, why the heck will you set cut-off frequency to 60Hz?

Regarding the two points,
1. That's not always the case. Amplifier gain is matched to the pre-out voltage of the stock head unit to achieve the "optimal" volume before amplifier clipping. This is the reason why both LnC and SQ peeps love head units with high pre-out voltages like Eclipse CD7200MKs with 8V - it allows them to set their amplifier gains lower for lower system noise.

2. #2 is where the opinion gets terribly wrong.

Optimizing the volume of a system takes consideration of the concept of clipping. Clipping is a state where the hardware is being pushed and it begins sending out erratic signals. If you're without an oscilloscope (as with most of us are), you use your ears to detect distortion. Soft clipping sends out barely-audible distortion but if you hit hard clipping.. man, you'll get horrible distortion and you should be able to detect it easily. Head unit clipping is tolerable but you wouldn't like amplifier clipping since it puts your speakers at risk. It's the #1 reason for damaged speakers after all.

Head units have a clipping volume. And since there's a ton of head units around, nobody really knows what volume does it start. My Hyundai Sonata's stock head unit starts around 28-31 out of 35. A good rule of thumb is 3/4 of the total volume and that's the reason why most installers use this "rule of thumb" to set amplifier gains -- it's just too much time to even bother testing the head unit with an oscilloscope. However, some head units do not reach clipping even if you max it out - a prime example of this is the Alpine CDA 9887.

Amplifier clipping, on the otherhand, is tricky. But the basis of clipping is that it occurs if you push the amplifier to provide "more" than its rated with. So that 75W of power you're throwing at your MMs? It'll probably jump to 150W on a square wave. While this is okay on brief transients, your midbass wouldn't like it if you keep at it since its voice coil can't cool down fast enough. It's usually the tweeter that "blows" once you hit clipping mostly because of power AND additional harmonics in the music signal, but since denber has a passive crossover that does the filtering (like a cap), his tweeter should be able to take the transient clipping.

Most of us won't mind brief clipping on transients (ex. peaks in the music) but you wouldn't really want clipping all-the-time -- it's where it gets dangerous. So tune and set gains properly ;) it's NOT a volume knob.

as i already posted on the previous page, the user manual of p300.2 tells the proper way of setting HU volume and amp GAIN which will give safe result.

[kazer]

pag napadpad rin ako sa kac s sr jhnkvn rin naman nakikita ko hehe. mas broader lang ang used market sa kac. wala lang talaga ako idea kung alin ang oks..

[jhnkvn]

the point in question here is that the speaker can handle 43 Hz, why the heck will you set cut-off frequency to 60Hz?

Because it is inefficient if you do. For example, even if you have a tweeter that goes down to 800hz doesn't mean you should cut it there. The realms of 60hz and below is best served by bigger diameter cones like subwoofer drivers because they can move air more efficiently. If your midbass tries to recreate 40hz and you can't hear it, you're just forcing the cone to travel longer all for naught and this is only contributes to additional wear.

I often state that frequency parameters are useless. This is because it doesn't specify how the testing is done. If it hits 43hz but at -12dB versus the -0dB at 100hz, then you won't hear anything given background listening.

Don't underestimate the cautions of removing filters. For every octave lower you go, you quadruple the cone travel needed. In other words, if your speaker cone is traveling 5mm to hit 100hz at a certain volume, you'll need 20mm of cone travel to hit 50hz. And with the additional movement, you bring in distortion because of more linear travel.

In denber's case since he's doing a subwoofer-free setup, then you'll need to hit at least 50-63hz comfortably at a good enough decibel level. Not only does he need bass extension but also output. I find that range is the magic number so that people can live "without a subwoofer". A testament to this is that most home audio bookshelf speakers are ported around those frequencies (ex. Dynaudio Excite at 55hz on their 5.5" bookshelf)

But in a setup with a subwoofer, crossing lower isn't always better since the subwoofer is superior in reproducing the low tones compared to the typical 6.5" midbass. As a testament to this, my midbass is crossed at 100hz and I have my subwoofer do the work all the way to 90hz. Truthfully, this is unconventional in car audio but, if done right, I get the cake and eat it too because of the work I put into blending the bass transitions together.

(Additional tidbit: Home audio subwoofers often play all the way up to 150hz)

[jhnkvn]

what do you recomend pag ka step by step ang upgrade ?
seperates + rear speakers + amps muna or seperates + rear speakers then amps + subs ?
I already have the basic HU.


Also anyone knows CCRV car electronic shop in del monte ? si bong ? A friend recommends them pero he is not really a pure audiophile so might be better to ask if anyone knows them here. are they reputable ? thanks !

1. Separates
2. Deaden front doors
3. Amplifier
4. Subwoofer

In that order of importance.

Re: CCRV
I'm not familiar with them. While most car audio shops near the Banawe area is well-versed naman in installation, you might want to go for shops that typically do installations "as a living" than as a "side-line"

Re:Speakers
Feel free to get any speakers you'd like at that price point. Truthfully, speaker engineering starts once you start paying more and how they sound is driven by their sound philosophy na. At budget levels, most speakers sound the same naman talaga. So if you want to go for Lightning Lab's seps, I won't stop you there naman. Lots of good choices around like JBL, Pioneer, Targa, Firland Audio, and Ryan Audio. The last three mentioned names are local much like LL, the biggest among them is Targa -- they're huge sa Philippines as an OEM provider. I doubt you'd have grown up without hearing their drivers. The Crown speakers you hear sa mga KTV? That's their drivers too

[acgq]

Try araneta car accesories along araneta ave. Look for jeff. Or try ryan audio along banaue, look for tim. They know what theyre doing.

[ninjababez]

magkano ba usual charge magpa-solder ng speaker wires sa speaker? found out na electrical tape lang pala gamit sa speakers ng auto eh, thanks!

[red_one]

Because it is inefficient if you do. For example, even if you have a tweeter that goes down to 800hz doesn't mean you should cut it there. The realms of 60hz and below is best served by bigger diameter cones like subwoofer drivers because they can move air more efficiently. If your midbass tries to recreate 40hz and you can't hear it, you're just forcing the cone to travel longer all for naught and this is only contributes to additional wear.

I often state that frequency parameters are useless. This is because it doesn't specify how the testing is done. If it hits 43hz but at -12dB versus the -0dB at 100hz, then you won't hear anything given background listening.

Don't underestimate the cautions of removing filters. For every octave lower you go, you quadruple the cone travel needed. In other words, if your speaker cone is traveling 5mm to hit 100hz at a certain volume, you'll need 20mm of cone travel to hit 50hz. And with the additional movement, you bring in distortion because of more linear travel.

In denber's case since he's doing a subwoofer-free setup, then you'll need to hit at least 50-63hz comfortably at a good enough decibel level. Not only does he need bass extension but also output. I find that range is the magic number so that people can live "without a subwoofer". A testament to this is that most home audio bookshelf speakers are ported around those frequencies (ex. Dynaudio Excite at 55hz on their 5.5" bookshelf)

But in a setup with a subwoofer, crossing lower isn't always better since the subwoofer is superior in reproducing the low tones compared to the typical 6.5" midbass. As a testament to this, my midbass is crossed at 100hz and I have my subwoofer do the work all the way to 90hz. Truthfully, this is unconventional in car audio but, if done right, I get the cake and eat it too because of the work I put into blending the bass transitions together.

(Additional tidbit: Home audio subwoofers often play all the way up to 150hz)

a speaker that rolls off naturally still sounds better for me. you are cutting 43Hz-60Hz from the mid-bass. it is like compressing your high-quality audio CD to an MP3 file. even if some frequency plays softer than other frequencies, audio CD music is still sounds superior to MP3 (that's why we call it a lossy format).

[red_one]

magkano ba usual charge magpa-solder ng speaker wires sa speaker? found out na electrical tape lang pala gamit sa speakers ng auto eh, thanks!

hmm, madali lang ba access yung speakers? madali tanggalin ang door panel? abutan mo na lang ng P100 or whatever you are comfortable with. simple lang magsolder. kung malapit ka sa area ko, i will do it for free kaso wala ako sa city.

[D3nb3r]

magkano ba usual charge magpa-solder ng speaker wires sa speaker? found out na electrical tape lang pala gamit sa speakers ng auto eh, thanks!

Are you talking about the wires coming from HU/amp and into your speakers and not the voice coil? If so,you can solder the wires yourself sir. It’s easy. I bet the price you pay for the labor for soldering those wires is more than what you will pay to buy a soldering iron and soldering lead. If you can, try buying soldering paste also para maganda kapit and malinis yung finish ng trabaho mo.

[jhnkvn]

magkano ba usual charge magpa-solder ng speaker wires sa speaker? found out na electrical tape lang pala gamit sa speakers ng auto eh, thanks!

Err.. wala naman problema ang electrical tape. For one, I use them extensively sa build ko. Done properly, it allows me easy installation and checking of the drivers is a breeze.

Note: this is speaker wire to speaker terminal