audio set-up for beginners [continued]

**ezem** · July 8th, 2014 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by jhnkvn

A 3-way will entail more costs than your 2-way. Wiring is one.. installation and fabrication is the other. But as long as you tune it right, even a basic 3-way will outperform a more expensive 2-way. So the Focal Access 3-way gets my vote.

The logic is very much like a turbo car versus a N/A engine. Given a certain distance, the turbo car will be better (faster) and it'll also be more failure-prone (BOV, turbocharger, etc.). You also need to tune the ECU well so you can take advantage of the added power. But when it all boils down to it, if you don't tune it well.. your 3-way will suck. And tuning a 2-way is significantly easier than a 3-way setup.

thanks again jhnkvn

**pbi76** · July 20th, 2014 10:43 AM

Hi everyone,

I want to upgrade my factory system but I have several concerns and I hope you guys can chime in as I have been out of the car audio scene for a very long time.

1. I want to retain my factory head unit because aside from wanting to retain the factory-look, it integrates with several systems of the car. The unit does not have RCA outputs and has very little in terms of tuning capabilities. My understanding is that some processors like the Bit Ten and H800 have speaker level input, RCA outputs, and a good amount of tuning options. In this regard, will I still be able to use the volume control of my head unit without affecting the tuning of the system?

2. Is there a way to connect the processor without splicing/cutting the wiring harness of the car. Specifically, my factory speakers connect to the wiring harness of the car via plugs. Would it be possible to use the plugs of the stock speaker and extend the wiring all the way to where the processor will be placed (under the seat or the trunk)?

3. My front speakers are composed of door-mounted woofers/midrange and A-Pillar-mounted tweeters. I want to retain the stock locations. I understand that having speaker pods and the like is better in terms of sound quality but will I end up compromising too much by using my stock locations? Can tuning make-up for the compromise?

4. My rear speakers are composed of door mounted woofers/midrange (lower part of the door) and tweeters at the top part of the door near the lever for opening the door. I understand that people have different opinions on what speakers to put in the rear but in my case, I need to have decent sound at the back. Should I assume that I should target matching my rear speakers with my front speakers?

5. How big is the difference in sound quality by ditching the passive crossovers that come with component sets and using a separate amplifier channel for each speaker?

6. I see a lot of Class D amplifiers and they seem to be very small relative to the amount of power they can put out. Class D amplifiers did not exist when I was into car audio (just shows how out of the loop I am) and I'm wondering if they are a big compromise versus the usual Class A/B designs. Since Class D amplifiers are more efficient, does that mean they put less strain on the alternator?

7. This is probably a very subjective query but I just want a system with good SQ at volume levels that are safe for driving with a little bit in reserve. What's a good target for amplifier power given moderately sensitive speakers.

8. Lastly, is there a big difference with using two subwoofers in stereo versus one in mono. I would like to use the smallest subwoofers possible. I'm thinking along the lines of either a couple of 6.5 inch subwoofers from JL or a single 8 inch subwoofer.

Thank you and I hope to hear from the experts.

**jhnkvn** · July 20th, 2014 10:34 PM

1. Which car are we talking about here? Some car audio purists might scoff at it but car manufacturers actually pay attention to your stock car audio system. Whether you may be able to use your head unit's volume knob to control your volume will depend on whether your system is interfacing via an analog or digital signal.

If you have your everyday typical car which uses speaker-level outputs (which are analog) then the answer is yes. 90% of the cars out there have this answer. But let's say you're well-off and you have a nicer car with an external amplifier - in this case the system might be interfacing via digital which will move your volume control from the head unit (where it processes data) to the processor.

A very good example of this is my car which I have retained my OEM factory head unit but I'm interacting with my processor via digital out.

2. I do not have the answer for #2. Unfortunately, installation isn't my forte.

3. No. For a 2-way system, sail-mounted tweeters is actually an excellent location. Midbass location depends on the car but most enthusiasts aren't that hardcore to chop at their doors just for the sake of attaining "better". You will not be compromising.

Tip: Depending on the stock midbass location, it might be a good idea to modify them in order to "free" the speaker. This reduces resonance of sound waves bouncing off the stock speaker grills which are often restrictive so that people can't see them.

4. What do you mean "target matching"? If this means having the same set of speakers, it need not be. It need not even be same-brand speakers. As to what speakers to go for, I will suggest settling for a price that you're comfortable with. For example, if I were to build a 200,000php system build, I might allocate 20,000php for rear speakers but I doubt I'll budget more since it isn't my priority.

Truthfully, on a properly set-up'ed system, just the front speakers is enough. Listen to my car and I'm pretty sure I am not compromising the backseat passengers. They still have great tonality at a good enough volume (in fact, they'll probably be deaf if they complain about the volume) but they won't get imaging and staging.

Most people who are.. let's say more serious into this hobby simple defeat the rear speakers. Why? The art of getting a great SQ inside the car is controlling the car environment - you control how these sound waves interact with one another. Controlling 4 drivers (2-way) or 6 individual drivers (3-way) is hard enough. If you throw in rear speakers, it simply shoots up the difficulty a lot more.

In the Philippines, I haven't heard a stereo system with a properly implemented rear-fill. The type of rear-fill that adds to the ambiance or to your test sheet scores and not wreck the entire sound presentation. It says a lot about how hard it is in tuning one. If you plan on this route, going 5.1 might be a better idea.

5. Un-tuned? Then the passives flat out win. What an "active" system simply means is that you take advantage of your DSP's capabilities and tune each driver to perform optimally. When you talk about potential, active takes the crown. When we compete, most of us are in one form or the other using an active configuration. Whether that be a 2-way/3-way fully active or a 3-way semi-active configuration.

6. Correct. Class D designs are more efficient in converting power and because of this efficiency they also do not emit a lot of excess power in the form of heat. This allows amplifier designers to lessen the amount of heat sinks needed to cool it. Originally used for subwoofer duties, full-range Class D amplifiers are quite common nowadays as the technology evolved from 2010 onwards. And because it's still not yet mature, I will recommend you stick to known brands. For example, the Alpine PDX series of amplifiers are great but my personal favorites are JL HD series of amplifiers which sit on top of the Class D designs right now (the HD900/5 namely - just two of them are enough to run any system).

7. It's hard to quantify "moderately sensitive speakers"

. Let's just say 50W of power is enough. Since power is cheap nowadays, I usually recommend eyeing for 75W. If you can go for 100W, why not? Amplifier power is inefficient because it scales exponentially. If it's volume efficiency you're looking for, I will suggest you start searching for efficient drivers.

On a personal level, I typically use around 400W in powering my entire system at a loud volume level. And trust me that I listen loudly. I use to joke that I'm not even tapping 20% of my available power (it can't anyway since my alternator won't keep up with the required amperes).

8. Nope. Subwoofers won't make a difference whether it's in mono or stereo. There's no such thing as a left or right signal in subwoofers is because "stereo" or "mono" is only relevant in imaging -- on how to pinpoint the sounds. However for sub-bass of less than 100hz, the sound wavelengths are too long that it doesn't matter. This is why you can have a subwoofer at the bottom of your computer desk and you still hear it getting along with your front desk speakers.

For subwoofers, the bigger - the better. If you can fit a 10" there, do it. If you can't, then go for multiples (ex. two 8" slightly outperforms a single 10")

**pbi76** · July 20th, 2014 11:49 PM

Thank you very much for the inputs, jhnkvn.

My factory stereo will end up interfacing with an aftermarket DSP using speaker level/analog signals so I'm glad I can still use the factory volume knob and the steering wheel controls to adjust volume and the like.

Regarding my query on the rear speakers, I was hoping that I wouldn't have to spend too much on them and based on your advice, it looks like I can scrimp a bit or even retain the factory units.

I am still on the fence whether to power the front speakers individually (4channel amp for 4 drivers) but it's something I'm very much open to doing especially if I end up with a really nice DSP.

I'm happy to hear that full range Class D amps are a viable option because I love the efficiency. I have heard great things about the JL amps but they are rather expensive so I'll probably have to consider cheaper alternatives.

On the subwoofer, I'll probably just go with a single unit. I really like the idea of a small sub as I want to give up as little space as possible but I guess there shouldn't be much space lost between an 8 and a 10 so might as well go with a bigger unit.

**jhnkvn** · July 21st, 2014 12:18 AM

But let me warn you first, if you plan on spending more than Php50,000 on your build. Rethink on whether you really need the factory unit. Because this will immediately be your weakest link in your sound system chain.

For example I once had my factory speaker outputs under the knife before and we figured out there's a huge suckout and HPF/LPF filters on selected frequencies. These were designed in order to protect the stock speakers but you can say it was a major PITA (pain in the ass) once I plan on competing using aftermarket speakers.

Your DSP-unit will try to compensate for this by the usage of boosting and cutting of EQ (for suckouts) and it's kinda helpless on the filters one - it'll probably boost the entire affected frequency range to compensate. Problem is, any system will not appreciate a huge artificial boost and this may translate into distortion (due to lack of "data" to boost) once taken too far.

If you want a suggestion on the amplifier selection, I will recommend you parallel import an Alpine PDX F4 from US' Amazon ([ame="http://www.amazon.com/Alpine-PDX-F4-Density-Digital-Amplifier/dp/B003GFZ6RI"]Amazon.com : Alpine PDX-F4 4/3/2 Power Density Digital Amplifier : Vehicle Multi Channel Amplifiers : Electronics[/ame]). Let's just hope Perfect Circle won't bite me

since they discourage these. Well.. due to unfriendly business taxes and costs, ang mahal kasi ng PDX series locally which makes parallel importing them quite.. appealing. These amplifiers are excellent since they leverage upon B&O's IcePower technology initially and then further refined them on their own on the subsequent revisions.

Also, don't get suckered in on subwoofer. You really don't need expensive subwoofers unless habol mo talaga is the engineering behind them. The price-performance gap is even more ridiculous sa subwoofers compared to your front-stage speakers.

**pbi76** · July 21st, 2014 01:32 AM

Thanks again.

Regarding the head unit, I am googling for options. Aside from steering wheel controls which I have read can be addressed with the right adapters, the factory head unit integrates with the parking sensors. When I park, the head unit shows a graphical representation of stuff I'm close to hitting. In addition, the factory head unit also integrates with the display in my instrument panel (volume level, track name, etc.)

I guess it's minor in the bigger scheme of things but retaining all the factory functionality is important to me and I'm hoping to find a replacement head unit that will work.

**jobo_ph** · July 21st, 2014 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by jhnkvn

Tip: Depending on the stock midbass location, it might be a good idea to modify them in order to "free" the speaker. This reduces resonance of sound waves bouncing off the stock speaker grills which are often restrictive so that people can't see them.

On my vehicle, I'm contemplating on this... pero saka na. DIY lang kasi ako. Still have other things I need to do before finally getting to this.

Most people who are.. let's say more serious into this hobby simple defeat the rear speakers. Why? The art of getting a great SQ inside the car is controlling the car environment - you control how these sound waves interact with one another. Controlling 4 drivers (2-way) or 6 individual drivers (3-way) is hard enough. If you throw in rear speakers, it simply shoots up the difficulty a lot more.

In the Philippines, I haven't heard a stereo system with a properly implemented rear-fill. The type of rear-fill that adds to the ambiance or to your test sheet scores and not wreck the entire sound presentation. It says a lot about how hard it is in tuning one. If you plan on this route, going 5.1 might be a better idea.

Interesting point. Since my car audio endeavor is self-learn/DIY and I'm not at the mercy of a 3rd party installer/tuner's schedule... I'll be trying out having a semi-3-way with a DEH-80PRS. Tweeter near the pillar (door cover for the door side mirrors). 6.5" woofer for mid-range on front door. 6.5" woofer for mid-bass on rear door. 10" sub at the back. Will be using amp's HPF and LPF controls to split the Mid crossover range set from head unit for the front and rear 6.5" woofers. Anyway, I'm just stubbornly curious how it will turn out. Of course, I will also be trying the usual recommended 2-way at front without rear door speakers and see how that goes too.

-----

OT: Plan to be at the 1st leg of 2014 EMMA SQ Competition this coming Aug 2 (spectator). Would love to listen to professionally SQ-setup'd car audio systems and learn more.

**jobo_ph** · July 21st, 2014 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by pbi76

I'm happy to hear that full range Class D amps are a viable option because I love the efficiency. I have heard great things about the JL amps but they are rather expensive so I'll probably have to consider cheaper alternatives.

For the past several weeks, I had also been looking at full range class-D amplifiers but as you've said, they're expensive. Settled for class AB one (Kenwood KAC-8406) plus a mixed class AB/class D (Kenwood X700-5).

On the subwoofer, I'll probably just go with a single unit. I really like the idea of a small sub as I want to give up as little space as possible but I guess there shouldn't be much space lost between an 8 and a 10 so might as well go with a bigger unit.

Same dillema as you with regard to space being occupied by the sub and more importantly the size of the enclosure (esp. depth) I can possibly make for the area in my vehicle where I could put the sub enclosure.

Really wanted those Pioneer shallow mount subs (online purchase) but ended with the relatively shallow Polk MM1040 (local purchase).

**jhnkvn** · July 21st, 2014 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by jobo_ph

Interesting point. Since my car audio endeavor is self-learn/DIY and I'm not at the mercy of a 3rd party installer/tuner's schedule... I'll be trying out having a semi-3-way with a DEH-80PRS. Tweeter near the pillar (door cover for the door side mirrors). 6.5" woofer for mid-range on front door. 6.5" woofer for mid-bass on rear door. 10" sub at the back. Will be using amp's HPF and LPF controls to split the Mid crossover range set from head unit for the front and rear 6.5" woofers. Anyway, I'm just stubbornly curious how it will turn out. Of course, I will also be trying the usual recommended 2-way at front without rear door speakers and see how that goes too.

-----

OT: Plan to be at the 1st leg of 2014 EMMA SQ Competition this coming Aug 2 (spectator). Would love to listen to professionally SQ-setup'd car audio systems and learn more.

You may run a semi-active 3-way on the Pioneer 80PRS but it is pointless because Pioneer set the cut-off too high up at around 1.2khz. In other words, your midrange is on upper midrange/lower tweeter territory. This is why we consider the 80PRS to be capable of 2-way.

Truth be told, there's no problem in having no midbass at your doors. You can even have the midbass at your rear quarterpanels. But this is highly advanced since you'll be taking account on how the brain processes sound. The premise of this is that our brains cannot locate lower-frequency signals well thus having your midbass at your rear doors is possible as long as it's cutoff is low (up to 180hz on a steep slope probably). Done right, it'll increase stage depth and you'd have better ambiance to boot. In the US, a car audio legend has done this and won a lot of major accolades - it's Richard Clark's Buick Grand National.

If you plan on going for the 3-way route, your "most affordable" head unit will be the Alpine CDA-9887 which is sold from 8-10k secondhand nowadays depending on condition. Eclipse 7200MKII is also a coveted head unit capable of it.. however, secondhand pricing will be around 20k na siguro. The rest of the choices are more expensive - it isn't "affordable" to run a 3-way system you see.

That's nice. Make sure to listen to competitor's car setups by asking the folks around. They won't bite naman :D The 60k and the 120k are great car categories if you're aiming for a good build. Usually the 120k and the 240k are the most hotly contested categories.

**jhnkvn** · July 21st, 2014 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by pbi76

Thanks again.

Regarding the head unit, I am googling for options. Aside from steering wheel controls which I have read can be addressed with the right adapters, the factory head unit integrates with the parking sensors. When I park, the head unit shows a graphical representation of stuff I'm close to hitting. In addition, the factory head unit also integrates with the display in my instrument panel (volume level, track name, etc.)

I guess it's minor in the bigger scheme of things but retaining all the factory functionality is important to me and I'm hoping to find a replacement head unit that will work.

If that's a German car from the likes of BMW, etc. then the head unit is probably has a digital out you can take advantage of. Now your problem is simply installation and budget - since going digital is often the realms of those who have a thick wallet

Digital is better than analog since digital connections (whether these be via digital coaxial or fiber optic TOSLINK) are immune to electromagnetic noise which is pretty godsent in a car environment where a lot affects the quality of your electrical chain (alternator, etc.). In the case you plan on exploring this option, your best bet is to go for a processor that can handle digital connections - cheapest among them would arguably be the Audison BitTen-D. However, it's still best to consult with your suking installer on your options and how to tackle your system build.