R & D (Research and Duplicate) - Why don't we do it?

**ghosthunter** · October 25th, 2012 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by niky

I say political because hydrogen is a good carrot to dangle in front of governments and voters. Hey, look... hydrogen is abundant. Hydrogen is non-polluting! Hydrogen allows you to enjoy all the things you previously enjoyed from your cars with none of the drawbacks.

While there may be a future for hydrogen in some part, it, like battery-electric, is not going to completely replace our car fleets. At this point, that's impossible.

What needs to be done is to slap people in the face with the cold hard reality that they need to, on a personal level, start doing more with less, if they want to enjoy a lifestyle akin to what they enjoy now.

As you say: "Consuming less, doing more with less, and polluting less is simply good practice."

And yet every year, people are treated to the same old feel-good "we can do it!" rhetoric. Making them hopeful that there's a miracle around the corner.

Act as if there's no miracle. Save. Conserve. Scale back what's not needed. And whether it occurs or not, you'll be in a better position than those who didn't.

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Actually, thinking about it, the one big advantage for hydrogen over some of the others is that you can store it long-term. So it's a possible storage medium for solar facilities, foregoing the need for batteries (that leak out energy over time). Of course, this is where it makes the most sense, because a majority of hydrogen production is still via natural gas (which is where Norway gets its hydrogen)... and you can simply compress natural gas to burn in CNG motors.

Although you can store hydrogen, it can still leak through the tank by permeability of the gas through the atoms of the metal.

**niky** · October 25th, 2012 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by ghosthunter

Although you can store hydrogen, it can still leak through the tank by permeability of the gas through the atoms of the metal.

Hence the hysterical amount of money poured into hydrogen fuel cells.

**EVO-V** · October 25th, 2012 06:53 PM

I don't think the Norwegian government is current because of their support for a Hydrogen economy. The Norwegians actually voted to invest and save for the future than to take their dividends from oil revenue now. Its outlook and perspective.

The energy mix of the future will likely be based on hydrocarbons. Up until electricity generation becomes too cheap and battery technology catches up, you really can't beat oil.

**EVO-V** · October 25th, 2012 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by niky

Hence the hysterical amount of money poured into hydrogen fuel cells.

Permeation isn't particularly a big deal. Working with hydrogen/helium and other light gasses simply require good seals and welded joints.

**ghosthunter** · October 25th, 2012 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by EVO-V

Permeation isn't particularly a big deal. Working with hydrogen/helium and other light gasses simply require good seals and welded joints.

permeation of hydrogen through the material of the tank itself... not through joints, valves and seals.

**EVO-V** · October 27th, 2012 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by ghosthunter

permeation of hydrogen through the material of the tank itself... not through joints, valves and seals.

If it is a carbon fiber tank then it is a matter of process, weaving, application of resin, and layering with non-permeable materials.

Hydrogen is used as a leak detection gas, so its rather predictable.

OT: why are there so many closed threads here and why is there no option to start one?

**donbuggy** · January 18th, 2013 11:59 AM

Instead of competing head-on with the big boys, local manufacturers could target niche markets - enclosed motorcycles. A vehicle that's simple and uses existing technology (gasoline engine, three wheels, air-conditioned).

Start with this:

Piaggio MP3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turn it into a three-wheeled version of this (without the high-tech gizmos):

Lit Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Make it something a cash-strapped latte-sipping iPhone-carrying SC would be proud of owning, just like the Italians and their Vespa scooters after World War II.

This is often overlooked by local manufacturers. The emphasis is often on utility not SC.

**niky** · January 18th, 2013 05:12 PM

Actually the "fashion" scooter crowd is a good market to target. The people willing to spend extra money on a Scoopy or a Mio Fino might just be swayed by a stylish alternative, as long as they can hit the proper quality target. Our local makes (Blaze, MCX) only target the traditional underbone crowd. Going after women would help them expand their market considerably.

**Phoenix67** · January 22nd, 2013 04:59 PM

I don't think the typical pinay would be riding that much...or would be willing to buy such fashion bike. Mausok at dangerous mag-motor sa Pinas.

Yung concept ng enclosed bike would be good pero kung lalayo yan sa price range ng current typical motor, I don't think it will also work-out.

About 15years ago, Bangkok had too many road constructions and too many cars plying it...motorsiklo nila nun was more than triple ng makikita natin sa metro manila. Now, you could hardly see any motorbike...more so with the bare-bone type motor bikes. What happened?!? Well (in my opinion) gumanda economiya nila, dinecongest nila ang main city (factories are now outside the BK)...automatic na rin na bumaba ang motorsiklo population.

Palagay ko, ganun ang puedeng mangyari sa Pinas, if our economy does recover...hindi na rin magkiclick ang motorsiklo.

I would still vote a micro car type of vehicle like the smart-for-two or the mini cooper type - with 600 to 1200cc engines.

**niky** · January 22nd, 2013 10:08 PM

You have to get the LTO and DENR to accomodate such cars.

China sells 250-500cc micro-cars using motorcycle engines, which would retail at 250-300k. But they fall afoul of type rules for cars, and need to be classified as quadricycles to work. (They're full-bodied cars, but the engines won't meet emissions, because they're bike engines).