Which would you buy?

[noreturn]

Ford uses 4.6L to make 300hp GM needs more like 5.7L because they are still using the 350ci design.

Blurg. It's late, and I'm tipsy. Cut me some slack, bud. Haha. Oh wait, you did.

[orly_andico]

the buick lucerne and ford five hundred get some pretty good reviews.. with the ford being considered the "best value large car."

camry hybrid? :D

[Jun aka Pekto]

NO, NO, NO! Bad Orange!

If nothing else, look to the fact that they need 3.5 liters to pull off 224hp. The Altima does 40 hp better with the same, not to mention that you can do things like TURN in the Altima.

And Pekto, what other fast cars have you driven? Because I've tested some of the best that GM has to offer, and I am severly underwhelmed. Basically, it should never take 4.6L to make 300hp.

I don't know about fast. But I was in the market for a V6 midsize last year. These are a list of the cars we test drove (over a 2-week period) before my wife settled on the 3.3L V6 Sonata. Some were driven after the main batch:

Honda Accord V6 sedan both A/T and M/T
Nissan Altima 3.5SE M/T (freshly out of A/T)
Mazda 6 V6 M/T (freshly out of A/T)
Hyundai Sonata V6
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Pontiac G6 GTP (sedan, later coupe)
VW Jetta turbo
Galant 3.8L V6
Toyota Camry (previous gen V6, not the 2007)
Toyota Avalon
Acura RL (just for comparison, $50k for one?........nope)
Lexus IS250 (just for comparison, underwhelming)
Lincoln LS V8
**We narrowly missed the Ford Fusion by a few days


The 4-bangers (all M/T). Wifey didn't like any of them. But, I did :

Mazda 3
Chevy Cobalt SS Supercharged
Saturn Ion Redline
Toyota Corolla XRS
Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
A slightly used demo XRT4
Hyundai Tiburon
(later the new Civic Si)
A friend has a Subaru STi. So I know how that drove.

I don't think engine displacement should be a criteria for determining hp. Bigger engines normally mean better torque and better response off the line. For longterm, I'd also go with bigger displacement engines like V8's if I wasn't so concerned about gas mileage (a V6 is a good compromise).

Take a look at this which is the Silver State Classic (which I've watched yearly, except the last couple of times) race. It's an all-out pedal to the metal race over 90 miles of public highway. Notice the big majority of winners in big-engined cars. Even vaunted cars like the STi would be overwhelmed:
Silver State Challenge

[noreturn]

Take a look at this which is the Silver State Classic (which I've watched yearly, except the last couple of times) race. It's an all-out pedal to the metal race over 90 miles of public highway. Notice the big majority of winners in big-engined cars. Even vaunted cars like the STi would be overwhelmed:
Silver State Challenge

Are you kidding me? First of all, the main winners are usually things like Corvettes. You're talking sub supercars here. And a vehicle that is completely non-representative of American cars or Chevrolet. You actually were shocked to see a Nissan 350Z trail the Vettes, Vipers, Porsche GT3's, and Ferraris?

Second, US highways are gigantic straight lines that maybe have a few kinks here and there. What little time the Jap and Euro cars could make up in handling is blasted away by the HP of the American cars. HP that they likely acheived with nearly double the displacement.

Put a Mustang on the Nürburgring against an STi and see what happens there.

[redorange]

Most of the cars that compete at the Silver State are far from stock and the race is basically a straight line which favors big displacement, high horsepower cars. I agree with Noreturn an STI or Evo at the ring against a Mustang GT(which is in the same price range) and the Ford loses.

As far as the Cobalt SS and Saturn Ion Redline they need to be supercharged to produce 200hp w/ a 2L engine because the stock 2.4L can only make 170hp. Honda makes an engine w/ 197hp w/ the same displacement, Toyota makes a 1.8L w/ 180hp, Mitsu. made a 1.6L w/ 170hp, BMW 2.3L w/ 190hp and those don't have superchargers to help it make power. Imagine what the Corvette if it made the same power per liter as the Japanese and European engine. 6.1L in the current Z06 would make over 600hp instead it makes 500hp which Ferrari only needs 4.3L to make about the same horsepower. So American engines tend to waste alot to make a little in horsepower. See this clip from Top Gear.

[Jun aka Pekto]

Are you kidding me? First of all, the main winners are usually things like Corvettes. You're talking sub supercars here. And a vehicle that is completely non-representative of American cars or Chevrolet. You actually were shocked to see a Nissan 350Z trail the Vettes, Vipers, Porsche GT3's, and Ferraris?

Second, US highways are gigantic straight lines that maybe have a few kinks here and there. What little time the Jap and Euro cars could make up in handling is blasted away by the HP of the American cars. HP that they likely acheived with nearly double the displacement.

Put a Mustang on the Nürburgring against an STi and see what happens there.

Gigantic straight lines or not, US Highways are where people drive daily and where most bets are settled. That or a stoplight. V8's, turbos, and everything in between will face off at the same piece of highway, not some closed track like Nurb.....

As for the Silver State Classic..... many of those in the lower average speed brackets are normal daily drivers with some sporting street mods.... The way people race their cars there would be much closer to the reality of how someone next to me might challenge me to a stoplight race.

Be back in two, maybe 3..... Groceries time.....

[Jun aka Pekto]

So American engines tend to waste alot to make a little in horsepower.

Hmmm. No one seems to remember the 2.3L Quad 4 of the early 90's which topped out at 190hp..... It fell in disfavor because it is too unrefined at idle and most people wanted V6's at the time.

[redorange]

Unrefined? The thing shook like a washing machine that wasn't loaded properly. That's just it they can't make a refined small engine like the foreign makers and still have high horsepower. The only reason DC makes any decent cars now is because MB owns it. Look at what GM is doing to Saab, they took whatever character those cars had and threw it out the door. They made the WRX a Saab 92x and the Trailblazer the 97x. Ford took Jaguar and put a Ford Mondeo in it's lineup. The problem with the US makers is that accountants are in-charge and not car people who understand what the buyer wants. GM and Ford continues to rely on it's truck platforms to survive even when sales are going down because of the gas prices. Also, who want's a 5.7L V8 when gas is at $3.40 per gallon? So they need to start making cars with small displacement and high hp that will get good mileage. The Japanese and European makers understand this because gas over there is more expensive than here.

[mazdamazda]

maybe they should starting selling these in the USA:

[redorange]

Yup, and that uses a Euro designed zetec engine.