New Montero Sport 4x4, Fortuner 3.0 4x4 or Sta. Fe 4x4.

[Gerbo]

Well guys...this thread is very informative but can we keep the debate "clean"?
-avoid name-calling with sarcasm.
-avoid the combination of bold and enlarged text forms, nakaka-irita sa mata.

Anyway, this is a forum...we can be very opinionated and passionate with what we say..but for the better interest of all we should be polite. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Teka, sorry drey (d pala ako ang mod!).

----
A lowly Crosswind owner here.

Naalala ko tuloy...."when things get complicated its always nice to go back to the basics".

BTT:
The Montero Sport, Fortuner, and Sta. Fe are all modern vehicles....each with its own characteristics and feel. Performance can be objectively evaluated but only to a certain extent because not everyone have access although information can be shared.

But most common users and owners usually have a subjective point to the performace and feel of their car....and most of these subjective evaluation takes a hue on one's expectations for the vehicle...."bias" as statisticians would have their say.

We generally expect a new vehicle esp. with a new engine and built and with a pricier tag to 'perform" and "feel" better...which is not always the case.

Choice is what makes it interesting.

Just imagine living in the Communist-era Eastern-bloc European countries where everyone else is driving the only car available ---the Trabant.

[alainroyce]

Looks like the New Montero has a positive turn out to the critics and specially to the new owner..

[yuichi]

group hug na......

[leonleon]

To anyone who knows:

On paper, the suspension set up of these three vehicles are as follows:

1) Montero Sport: Front = Double wishbone coil springs and stabilizer bar
Back = 3-Link coil springs with stabilizer bar

2) Fortuner: Front = Double wishbone with coil springs and stabilizers
Back = 4-Link with coil spring and lateral rod

3) Sta. Fe: Front = MacPherson strut type
Back = Multi - link type

My question is: Just by looking at the paper declaration, can you tell
me which set up is more expensive?

Curious lang po ako with all these talk lately of which of the 3 vehicles
above has a more comfortable ride, and yung original question about
value for money ng thread starter. I would like to think kasi na in terms
of suspension, the more expensive set up gives the customer the more
value for his money di ba? Tnx.

[ferdine]

Riding comfort

Montero - no comment
Fortuner - proven na matagtag, kailangan mo i upgrade ang suspension
Don't know about the coming facelifted model.

Sta. Fe - proven na comfortable talaga.

[alainroyce]

To anyone who knows:

On paper, the suspension set up of these three vehicles are as follows:

1) Montero Sport: Front = Double wishbone coil springs and stabilizer bar
Back = 3-Link coil springs with stabilizer bar

2) Fortuner: Front = Double wishbone with coil springs and stabilizers
Back = 4-Link with coil spring and lateral rod

3) Sta. Fe: Front = MacPherson strut type
Back = Multi - link type

My question is: Just by looking at the paper declaration, can you tell
me which set up is more expensive?

Curious lang po ako with all these talk lately of which of the 3 vehicles
above has a more comfortable ride, and yung original question about
value for money ng thread starter. I would like to think kasi na in terms
of suspension, the more expensive set up gives the customer the more
value for his money di ba? Tnx.

Good question, we also need a good answer to this.. paging all expert!

[redorange]

To anyone who knows:

On paper, the suspension set up of these three vehicles are as follows:

1) Montero Sport: Front = Double wishbone coil springs and stabilizer bar
Back = 3-Link coil springs with stabilizer bar

2) Fortuner: Front = Double wishbone with coil springs and stabilizers
Back = 4-Link with coil spring and lateral rod

3) Sta. Fe: Front = MacPherson strut type
Back = Multi - link type

My question is: Just by looking at the paper declaration, can you tell
me which set up is more expensive?

Curious lang po ako with all these talk lately of which of the 3 vehicles
above has a more comfortable ride, and yung original question about
value for money ng thread starter. I would like to think kasi na in terms
of suspension, the more expensive set up gives the customer the more
value for his money di ba? Tnx.

Comfort and vehicle ride is subjective. What may be soft and a boat like ride may be perfect for you and too soft for me. Vehicle cost also has nothing to do with how a vehicle rides, it's dependent on suspension tuning. As an example a BMW sold in Germany will not feel the same way as a BMW sold in the US since the manufacturer changes the suspension tuning for the respective markets. As for the three choices here the Santa Fe will be better on road by virtue of it's independent suspension all around. The other two will have a hard time competing with it on road just because they have a solid axle configuration in the rear and a higher ground clearance. Between the Montero and Fortuner it would depend on the tuning of the springs and shocks, the difference of the 3 link and 4 link would be more evident off road. The Montero and Fortuner would also have an advantage over the Santa Fe off road because of the same solid axle and it's better articulation compared to a independent suspension vehicle. Now as far as struts and wishbone suspension I think Niky has answered everything. Just because a vehicle has struts does not make it inferior to one with wishbones. As a side note the ZO6 Corvette has an inverted leaf spring suspension in the rear and it is one of the best handling cars around. It's not the type of suspension it's how it is tuned by the manufacturer. The best way to find out which is better for you is to test drive the vehicles.

[niky]

Yup... that's pretty much it.

A double-wishbone is usually more expensive, but that's given similar quality and parts prices... if we were talking old Civic versus old Corolla here, the Civic's double wishbone would definitely cost more than the Corollas and be more sophisticated, but that would have nothing to do with the actual ride comfort... just the sophistication.

Let me go against what I said a while ago... you can make a double-wishbone set-up more comfortable than a McPherson strut and give them the exact same handling performance. That's because a double-wishbone has superior geometry and articulation.

But you start to see the problem... that's at the same performance... and that's where things start to differ... if a McPherson strut car isn't built purely for performance (like the new Corolla), the suspension can be tuned for a softer ride. And anti-roll bars and adjustments to caster and toe geometry can be combined to give McPherson struts better performance without the ride degradation you'd expect from making them stiffer.

The Corvette is an interesting design... they use a single leaf spring set-up on a multi-link independent suspension. By having the leaf-spring mounted transversely between the rear wheels, it also serves the same function as an anti-roll bar (there's also a separate anti-roll bar, though). Only problem with using the spring as an anti-roll bar is the twitchy rear end that results from having the stiffness and the anti-roll function linked together. The new ZR1 avoids this by using a much softer rear spring, and using the magnetorheological dampers to provide extra stiffness in cornering.

No, you can't tell how expensive a system is by just looking at the specifications. You have to consider the vehicle as a whole. A McPherson costs less to make than double wishbones, but the rear multi-link of the Santa Fe is more sophisticated (and more expensive to make) than the solid-axle rear of the Fort or the Montero.

And the Santa Fe's unibody costs more to make than the body-on-frame Fort or Montero. And part of suspension design is designing the suspension around the body. A stiffer unibody allows the manufacturer to tune the suspension softer while maintaining performance, as the unibody's extra stiffness over the ladder frame helps keep the suspension mounts more stable than with a ladder frame... making for superior performance for the same stiffness of suspension. On a ladder frame, you need a much stiffer suspension to approach the road-holding and cornering performance of a unibody. And the solid rear-axle also requires a stiffer suspension to compensate for the fact that single wheel bumps at the rear are transmitted to the other side of the car (which contributes to the nasty snap-oversteer of trucks when they lose traction). The stabilizer bar reduces that tendency, though.

Still, it all depends on the specific vehicle. On paper specification will never tell you how well a vehicle performs. The Honda Fit/Jazz has McPherson struts and a rear beam axle... yet handles like a dream. The Corolla has the same thing, yet handles like tripe... but has the softest ride in its class.

Most ladder-frames are terrible on-road compared to unibodies... but there are some good ones... the Ranger has good handling... the Strada has a good ride... the Navarra has both (I sincerely hope Nissan brings in the Pathfinder... if it's as good as the Navarra... jackpot!)

But ladder-frames are still superior for off-road weapons... providing a solid underbody that can resist obstacle impacts and carry much heavier loads. Some unibodies are good off-road, but most of the best off-roaders (Jeep, Jimny, Landcruiser) are ladder-frames.

[leonleon]

RedOrange, Niky, thanks for the very good explanations. I've always wondered which set up is more expensive to put up.

The Philippine automotive market has gone a long way from way back when. I remember in the not so distant past, test-drives were non-existent in these islands, and all the Filipino buyer had to rely on was what was written on paper - and even then, there was not much that was written.

But now, it would be a sin if you don't go out and ask the dealer for a test drive when you are in the market for a new vehicle . But the test drive only gets you so far because all new cars ride well on a limited course/path.

So you still have to rely on either actual owners' experiences and/or fora like these to get a better overall general viewpoint and knowledge base to make a more informed decision beyond just the sticker price of the vehicle.

[niky]

RedOrange, Niky, thanks for the very good explanations. I've always wondered which set up is more expensive to put up.

The Philippine automotive market has gone a long way from way back when. I remember in the not so distant past, test-drives were non-existent in these islands, and all the Filipino buyer had to rely on was what was written on paper - and even then, there was not much that was written.

But now, it would be a sin if you don't go out and ask the dealer for a test drive when you are in the market for a new vehicle . But the test drive only gets you so far because all new cars ride well on a limited course/path.

So you still have to rely on either actual owners' experiences and/or fora like these to get a better overall general viewpoint and knowledge base to make a more informed decision beyond just the sticker price of the vehicle.

There are tricks to make the most out of a test drive... like finding humps or ramps to run over... ...or, mbt's favorite, the slaloming test (just saw the wheel back and forth when going in a straight line... this tests steering response, body control and roll and grip all at the same time)... but yes, most test-drives are too short and uninformative to tell you much about the vehicle... but that's changing.

One great venue is the World Trade Center, during auto-shows. Since they make the manufacturers park on the gravel and grass lot out in front for the test-drives, you get to feel the suspension's response to the bumpy, rocky surface as you head off and come back. Then, you drive out to Roxas and loop back around by Blue Wave... this portion shows you the high-speed ride comfort (don't be afraid to push it to 100 km/h) of the vehicle and exposes any tendency towards being overly stiff or floaty. You can also test out vehicle response around MOA, but it takes experience to form conclusions from such a short drive... and even then, first impressions can still be wrong (I've been guilty of this myself).