how do lexus cars really compare to european cars?

[x_outpost]

Running 2 seconds is only part of the equation. The engine may be able to run that but the chassis is not designed to handle that power. Thus, it is still a Civic.

Does it make a 2 second Civic a Ferrari? IMO, no, a Civic is a Civic is a Civic.
You may call it what you want, but the fact is, it is always going to be a Civic.

Would you call a 2 second Civic a Lambo? I don't think so. That's not being snob. That's a simple fact.

so what does "how everything works" mean? the civic is now virtually insulated from outside and engine noise, does 0-60 in 2 seconds, and has nice leather interior. so what else does the civic have to do, so that "everything works", so's it can start comparing with european automotive royalty? or are we dealing with snob appeal?
decades ago, there was this series of ads in the US by an american car manufacturer, where the subject customer was blindfolded, then asked to ride some cars... without snob appeal, the pedestrian brands could actually compete with royalty..

[niky]

I beg to differ. You cannot compare a M3 and a 328i. it's not just "extran insulation and nicer interior materials".
It's how everything works. You can put a V10 on a Civic, put a 1 foot thick insulation, it may run 0-60 miles in 2 seconds, but IMHO, it will still be a Civic.

The M3 is as different from the 328i as the Type R is from the regular Civic, or the Evo from the regular Lancer.

If I'm buying a premium car, then I would prefer to have premium parts.
The reason why Jaguar was a flop when Ford owned them because they were putting parts from Ford parts bin.
I think most people care that when they buy something premium, it should look premium, feel premium, work premium and real.

Jaguar was a flop not because of the parts they used, but because Ford at the time was terrible at developing brands and models. They'd spend a lot on a car up front then let it rot on the vine with little follow-up, reengineering or planning.

Also, the X-Type was not a premium car using mass-market parts... it was basically a mass-market car with premium parts. A Ford Mondeo dressed up and re-imagined as a Jag. This is something that worked for Toyota with the ES, and for Rolls-Royce with the 7-series based Phantom, but it didn't work for Ford. All down to market perception of the respective cars (and because the V6 wasn't that reliable or great a motor.)

It's all about market perception... the same market perception that made the VW Phaeton, which is basically an Audi with a VW skin and a lower price tag, a flop. The same market perception that has people paying a fortune for Rolexes when a Seiko at a tenth of the price keeps better time.

-

Audi is different. They use shared parts... but the A4 to A8 platforms are completely different from VW products, with a longitudinal engine layout... and the R8 is basically a cut-down Gallardo. And whatever parts they have under the hood, at least the interiors are great. When we started this part of the discussion, that's all I wanted to point out.

-

Let me clarify. Premium purchases are silly in the same way all brand-new purchases are silly. You're spending extra for intangibles. Dad had a Merc. Lovely car, but not practical. Uncle has a brand new S-Class, which is terrific, but a nightmare to maintain. Personally, I don't buy. I don't really care if I'm driving around a ten year old Crosswind, it does what I want it to, and I don't really care to spend the cost of a house (here in the Philippines, due to the taxes) to project an image.

But like I said: As long as it makes you happy, go ahead. I can fully understand and even appreciate it. I'm just saying Audi's use of VW parts doesn't make it any worse than its competitors, who also share parts (or are starting to share parts) with cheaper makes.

[x_outpost]

The M3 is as different from the 328i as the Type R is from the regular Civic, or the Evo from the regular Lancer.

You're stating the very obvious.
The question is, have you owned both to know the "real" difference?

[niky]

You're asking what I' ve owned. I didn't start that particular subdiscussion.

I was merely opinion that parts-sharing doesn't make Audis any worse than Mercs or Bimmers... who have their own foibles. That's all.

You're stating the very obvious.
The question is, have you owned both to know the "real" difference?

Nope. I've driven them. And again, it's much like the difference between a Lancer and an Evo. In the way that both the Evo and the M3 are ridiculously fast, ridiculously stiff, ridiculously noisy and ridiculously expensive compared to the base models... though at least the M3's interior isn't filled with economy-grade plastic. Of course, the M3 does feel incredibly special, but if we're talking strictly nuts and bolts, the comparison is still true.

Only reason nobody asks Clarkson if he's "owned" everything he reviews is because after being in the game for so long, he's incredibly rich. That doesn't mean he doesn't spout BS every now and then. (And if I spout BS myself, you're welcome to debate me on it, as we're doing now) Ownership gives you more insight into specific cars, but saying that only someone who's "owned" everything can give an opinion is a bit much, because nobody (except Jay Leno) has owned everything.

Ain't going to get into a pissing contest here. Honestly don't know what you're so worked up about.

[x_outpost]

Of course, the M3 does feel incredibly special, but if we're talking strictly nuts and bolts, the comparison is still true.

You are contradicting your self. You just said, "premium" or not - they're all the same.
And stop bragging about you as a writer when you can't even stick to the topic.
I'm glad you don't write for Motor Trend, Automobile, Car & Driver, etc - else, I would be cancelling my subscription.

[shadow]

You are contradicting your self. You just said, "premium" or not - they're all the same.
And stop bragging about you as a writer when you can't even stick to the topic.
I'm glad you don't write for Motor Trend, Automobile, Car & Driver, etc - else, I would be cancelling my subscription.

Ouch...I mean....aray!


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[x_outpost]

You're asking what I' ve owned. I didn't start that particular subdiscussion.

I was merely opinion that parts-sharing doesn't make Audis any worse than Mercs or Bimmers... who have their own foibles. That's all.



Nope. I've driven them. And again, it's much like the difference between a Lancer and an Evo. In the way that both the Evo and the M3 are ridiculously fast, ridiculously stiff, ridiculously noisy and ridiculously expensive compared to the base models... though at least the M3's interior isn't filled with economy-grade plastic. Of course, the M3 does feel incredibly special, but if we're talking strictly nuts and bolts, the comparison is still true.

Only reason nobody asks Clarkson if he's "owned" everything he reviews is because after being in the game for so long, he's incredibly rich. That doesn't mean he doesn't spout BS every now and then. (And if I spout BS myself, you're welcome to debate me on it, as we're doing now) Ownership gives you more insight into specific cars, but saying that only someone who's "owned" everything can give an opinion is a bit much, because nobody (except Jay Leno) has owned everything.

Ain't going to get into a pissing contest here. Honestly don't know what you're so worked up about.

Hey, listen...I've put my argument about Toyota/Lexus vs Euro cars. You came with your out-of-topic response that everything is the same. Then you contradicted about M3 being special. And then you brought up Jeremy and Jay on the equation. I feel bad for people who bought your magazine. Because I could never comprehend where you're coming from. You are all over the place.

If you want to make an argument, stay on topic and stay relevant. Stay out of your "rich" and all that crap - that doesn't make your out-of-topic response valid.

[x_outpost]

Dad had a Merc. Lovely car, but not practical. Uncle has a brand new S-Class, which is terrific, but a nightmare to maintain.

Who cares what they drive???
Does it make you better because your family drives a nice car??
I can probably list a dozen pages if I have to list down what cars my family drives - but what's your point?
We were discussing about how Lexus about Euro cars, then suddenly you jump to the discussion and swayed the topic away.

If you want to contribute something to the discussion, then stay on topic.

Please spare me with your lectures about Audis and VWs. I've owned a few of VW and Audi cars so you're lecturing to someone who actually owned them. Not someone who just watched them on Youtube. Let me ask you this, have you owned a VAG car before?

[creepy]

Who cares what they drive???
Does it make you better because your family drives a nice car??
I can probably list a dozen pages if I have to list down what cars my family drives - but what's your point?
We were discussing about how Lexus about Euro cars, then suddenly you jump to the discussion and swayed the topic away.

If you want to contribute something to the discussion, then stay on topic.

Please spare me with your lectures about Audis and VWs. I've owned a few of VW and Audi cars so you're lecturing to someone who actually owned them. Not someone who just watched them on Youtube. Let me ask you this, have you owned a VAG car before?

Ok we know you own an M (3?? or 5??) and don't want to waste time with people who have M-Sports. And used to own a "few of VW and Audi cars". Anything else to add? So we know how much of an expert (or rich) you are?

[piscesboy]

para sa mayaman lang tong thread na to, kaya kayong mga amoy lupa tulad ko wag na kayo magpost dito



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