how do lexus cars really compare to european cars?

[x_outpost]

I don't believe it to be a big deal. Having engineering shared between different makes and models defrays costs, which means you get more for your money. The only difference is Toyota does this with different badges. BMW and Mercedes do this within the brand, but parts and platform components are shared vertically within both brands. Toyota/Lexus shares more horizontally, which allows them to build luxury cars for cheaper than the competition. Win-win situation.

Granted, this does mean that some Toyota-brand vehicles are forced to use slightly less nice leather and plastics than the Koreans or makes like Peugeot and Mazda use... but that's not an issue for Lexus itself.

May not be big deal to you but it is big deal to others. Different strokes for different folks.
I'll give you an example why it is a big deal to me. When I owned my Audis, I brought some OEM stuffs (brake fluid, MAFs, etc) and they are stamped with Bentley, Audi and VW on their housing. They were priced ridiculously compared to other German parts so I asked my self- if I drove a VW or a Seat which is, in comparison at par with Honda and Toyota, then why should I pay expensive parts that are supposed to be for more expensive brands of the company?

Another example, I bought parts for the same cars (i.e. air filter, oil filter, etc) - and again, these are designed to work with various VW group brands. For an OEM, they were cheap - about the same as Walmart brands. Now, I ask my self again, VW cheaped out and put VW/Seat parts on my Audi. Again, this may not matter to you but what if you drove one of their exotic brands (Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti) and found out that they have Golf parts?

Again, if these things doesn't bother you that good for you.

I'm not bothered with model-to-model sharing within a brand. Because I know they created them for one specific brand.

Just my opinion (which everyone is entitled).

[niky]

Depends... how good are the parts?

To some extent, buying any "premium" car is silly, because the mechanical bits are just mechanical bits. There's not really much in a "premium" car that puts it above and beyond a new "regular" car besides some extra insulation and nicer interior materials. They all use engines, suspensions, brakes and bearings. The 918 supercar uses modified Cayenne braking components, if I recall right... and many 80's and 90's supercars used handles, control stalks and lights from mass market parts bins.

All that matters is that the car works well and when you use it, it satisfies you.

The parts sharing isn't going away. Soon, BMWs will be sharing parts with Toyota. Mercedes already has parts shared with Mitsubishi and Chrysler in the past and might share with others again. And many of the electronic and engine components (fuel injectors, pumps, ECUs) are shared between brands. You can get the same transfer case that's on a high-end Jeep Wrangler Rubicon by buying a Foton. You can get the same high-tech Bosch injection system on said Foton as you get on most European diesels. Does that then make those other cars overpriced compared to the Foton? Hardly. Because they offer something extra. Build quality, better engineered bodies, brand value. That doesn't change because of who or what may be using the same components.

Understand the feeling... if you're paying extra for something premium, you expect something more, but it doesn't bother me. (then again, I'm cheap. )

[jhnkvn]

Hmm, that'll be hard for you x_outpost.

Fact is, many automakers are still surviving today is because of vertical integration and included in that, part integration. Even the Chinese does it. When you raised the Volkswagen group, I must admit that they're really the automotive example of manufacturing efficiency (I rate them more than Toyota in this regard). You'll find many cross-parts from their main VW brand, to their MAN diesel trucks, to Audi and Bentley. Lahat naman yan kuhaan lang ng parts, for example.. a lot of supercars uses transmissions sourced from ZF Friedrichshafen.. then there's also Johnson Systems... Bosche... and the list continues on.

The price-performance scales up a lot once you start passing the "basics". A Lexus LX570 would cost you more than twice a Toyota LC200 and yet it shares a lot of mechanical parts inside. The luxury arena is what it is.. it's a luxury long reigned by the Europeans. Would you think of Cadillac as the epitome of everyday luxury? In the Philippines, maybe yes (because we don't have them) but in other places, it's always been the Europeans. Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc. all come to mind. And in paying for luxury, there's moolah to spend. Because luxury itself is a luxury.. if not, we'll all be content in driving around in Toyota Vios'es around Metro Manila.

Nowadays, I find that Lexus is already on par with European brands. In fact, I'll rate them higher than Audi in terms of "I Like". For now, I'm simply following the auto trend around and wondering if Hyundai-Equus can do what Toyota did with their Lexus.

[ronw123w124]

For me, Lexus is up there with Mercedes and BMW statuswise. But there are some Lexus models that has a Toyota counterpart that actually looks better than Lexus. A good example is the LC200 and the LX570, somehow the looks of the LX570 never warmed up on me and I find the LC200 actually prettier than the LX570.

[dr. d]

For me, Lexus is up there with Mercedes and BMW statuswise. But there are some Lexus models that has a Toyota counterpart that actually looks better than Lexus. A good example is the LC200 and the LX570, somehow the looks of the LX570 never warmed up on me and I find the LC200 actually prettier than the LX570.

beauty. it's always in the eyes of the beholder.
but sometimes, we are blinded by the price tag..
just like the pictures in the society pages...

[x_outpost]

Depends... how good are the parts?

To some extent, buying any "premium" car is silly, because the mechanical bits are just mechanical bits. There's not really much in a "premium" car that puts it above and beyond a new "regular" car besides some extra insulation and nicer interior materials.

I beg to differ. You cannot compare a M3 and a 328i. it's not just "extran insulation and nicer interior materials".
It's how everything works. You can put a V10 on a Civic, put a 1 foot thick insulation, it may run 0-60 miles in 2 seconds, but IMHO, it will still be a Civic.

[dr. d]

I beg to differ. You cannot compare a M3 and a 328i. it's not just "extran insulation and nicer interior materials".
It's how everything works. You can put a V10 on a Civic, put a 1 foot thick insulation, it may run 0-60 miles in 2 seconds, but IMHO, it will still be a Civic.

so what does "how everything works" mean? the civic is now virtually insulated from outside and engine noise, does 0-60 in 2 seconds, and has nice leather interior. so what else does the civic have to do, so that "everything works", so's it can start comparing with european automotive royalty? or are we dealing with snob appeal?
decades ago, there was this series of ads in the US by an american car manufacturer, where the subject customer was blindfolded, then asked to ride some cars... without snob appeal, the pedestrian brands could actually compete with royalty..

[x_outpost]

Running 2 seconds is only part of the equation. The engine may be able to run that but the chassis is not designed to handle that power. Thus, it is still a Civic.

Does it make a 2 second Civic a Ferrari? IMO, no, a Civic is a Civic is a Civic.
You may call it what you want, but the fact is, it is always going to be a Civic.

Would you call a 2 second Civic a Lambo? I don't think so. That's not being snob. That's a simple fact.

so what does "how everything works" mean? the civic is now virtually insulated from outside and engine noise, does 0-60 in 2 seconds, and has nice leather interior. so what else does the civic have to do, so that "everything works", so's it can start comparing with european automotive royalty? or are we dealing with snob appeal?
decades ago, there was this series of ads in the US by an american car manufacturer, where the subject customer was blindfolded, then asked to ride some cars... without snob appeal, the pedestrian brands could actually compete with royalty..

[niky]

I beg to differ. You cannot compare a M3 and a 328i. it's not just "extran insulation and nicer interior materials".
It's how everything works. You can put a V10 on a Civic, put a 1 foot thick insulation, it may run 0-60 miles in 2 seconds, but IMHO, it will still be a Civic.

The M3 is as different from the 328i as the Type R is from the regular Civic, or the Evo from the regular Lancer.

If I'm buying a premium car, then I would prefer to have premium parts.
The reason why Jaguar was a flop when Ford owned them because they were putting parts from Ford parts bin.
I think most people care that when they buy something premium, it should look premium, feel premium, work premium and real.

Jaguar was a flop not because of the parts they used, but because Ford at the time was terrible at developing brands and models. They'd spend a lot on a car up front then let it rot on the vine with little follow-up, reengineering or planning.

Also, the X-Type was not a premium car using mass-market parts... it was basically a mass-market car with premium parts. A Ford Mondeo dressed up and re-imagined as a Jag. This is something that worked for Toyota with the ES, and for Rolls-Royce with the 7-series based Phantom, but it didn't work for Ford. All down to market perception of the respective cars (and because the V6 wasn't that reliable or great a motor.)

It's all about market perception... the same market perception that made the VW Phaeton, which is basically an Audi with a VW skin and a lower price tag, a flop. The same market perception that has people paying a fortune for Rolexes when a Seiko at a tenth of the price keeps better time.

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Audi is different. They use shared parts... but the A4 to A8 platforms are completely different from VW products, with a longitudinal engine layout... and the R8 is basically a cut-down Gallardo. And whatever parts they have under the hood, at least the interiors are great. When we started this part of the discussion, that's all I wanted to point out.

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Let me clarify. Premium purchases are silly in the same way all brand-new purchases are silly. You're spending extra for intangibles. Dad had a Merc. Lovely car, but not practical. Uncle has a brand new S-Class, which is terrific, but a nightmare to maintain. Personally, I don't buy. I don't really care if I'm driving around a ten year old Crosswind, it does what I want it to, and I don't really care to spend the cost of a house (here in the Philippines, due to the taxes) to project an image.

But like I said: As long as it makes you happy, go ahead. I can fully understand and even appreciate it. I'm just saying Audi's use of VW parts doesn't make it any worse than its competitors, who also share parts (or are starting to share parts) with cheaper makes.

[x_outpost]

The M3 is as different from the 328i as the Type R is from the regular Civic, or the Evo from the regular Lancer.

You're stating the very obvious.
The question is, have you owned both to know the "real" difference?