Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Hi guys, parecommend naman po ako. I have this Alpine V12 MRV-1607 and a Kicker Subwoofer I don't know the rating but it's enclosed in a big box 14". Kasama na yung subwoofer and ampli noong binili ko yung 2nd hand car and nka bridge yung subwoofer sa 2 channels and the other 2 channels were left unused.
Here is the rating:
Alpine V12 MRV-1607 800W x 4 Channel - 2 Ohms Stable Bass Boost
Mosfet 3 Way Crossover
1. What does "3 Way Crossover" mean?
2. What could be the amplifier's nominal RMS? I assume 800W is the max RMS rating. Hindi ko makita sa case niya and I don't have the box.
3. I am planning to use the 2 spare channels of the ampli. Is JBL GTO 608c safe to use for this since it is 2ohms also? I have seen it has nominal RMS of 70W and max RMS of 210W per speaker.
4. Is it possible to check the rating of the subwoofer without removing it from the box? Iniisip ko kasi baka underrated or overrated siya and in the future baka masira niya yung amplifier.
Hoping for some inputs here. Thanks!
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lloydi12345
Hi guys, parecommend naman po ako. I have this Alpine V12 MRV-1607 and a Kicker Subwoofer I don't know the rating but it's enclosed in a big box 14". Kasama na yung subwoofer and ampli noong binili ko yung 2nd hand car and nka bridge yung subwoofer sa 2 channels and the other 2 channels were left unused.
Here is the rating:
Alpine V12 MRV-1607 800W x 4 Channel - 2 Ohms Stable Bass Boost
Mosfet 3 Way Crossover
1. What does "3 Way Crossover" mean?
2. What could be the amplifier's nominal RMS? I assume 800W is the max RMS rating. Hindi ko makita sa case niya and I don't have the box.
3. I am planning to use the 2 spare channels of the ampli. Is JBL GTO 608c safe to use for this since it is 2ohms also? I have seen it has nominal RMS of 70W and max RMS of 210W per speaker.
4. Is it possible to check the rating of the subwoofer without removing it from the box? Iniisip ko kasi baka underrated or overrated siya and in the future baka masira niya yung amplifier.
Hoping for some inputs here. Thanks!
1. Amplifiers usually have built-in crossovers for them for you to configure the cut-offs of a speaker. Crossovers are devices that filters sound and directs the sound to a speaker. For example: bass sounds are prohibited from going to tweeters is because the energy of a bass wave is too much for a tweeter to handle and will damage the speaker.
2. Disregard the 800W, there's no such thing as a max RMS rating. Google will often give you its spec sheet if you check sites such as sulit.com.. if not, you can assume it's around 50-60W RMS.
3. 2-ohms indicated in the speaker is that it's stable at a heavier load. A lot of 4-channel amplifiers are stable at a 2-ohm load nama n so this is nothing extraordinary. At 2 ohms, you can assume its power will be around 4x90W RMS.
With speakers, don't pay attention to what the RMS rating of a speaker tells you. It doesn't really show you the capability of a speaker. Just get the speaker that fits your budget and that you're comfortable in purchasing. If you like JBL, then go JBL. If you like Pioneer, then go Pioneer.
4. A subwoofer can't be under-rated or over-rated since it's the one consuming the power. You can only under-rate or over-rate an amplifier since it gives out power. For example, if the spec sheet says the amplifier is rated 80W * 13.8V then you test it and it gives a whopping 100W * 13.8V, then that's under-rated.
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jhnkvn
1. Amplifiers usually have built-in crossovers for them for you to configure the cut-offs of a speaker. Crossovers are devices that filters sound and directs the sound to a speaker. For example: bass sounds are prohibited from going to tweeters is because the energy of a bass wave is too much for a tweeter to handle and will damage the speaker.
2. Disregard the 800W, there's no such thing as a max RMS rating. Google will often give you its spec sheet if you check sites such as sulit.com.. if not, you can assume it's around 50-60W RMS.
3. 2-ohms indicated in the speaker is that it's stable at a heavier load. A lot of 4-channel amplifiers are stable at a 2-ohm load nama n so this is nothing extraordinary. At 2 ohms, you can assume its power will be around 4x90W RMS.
With speakers, don't pay attention to what the RMS rating of a speaker tells you. It doesn't really show you the capability of a speaker. Just get the speaker that fits your budget and that you're comfortable in purchasing. If you like JBL, then go JBL. If you like Pioneer, then go Pioneer.
4. A subwoofer can't be under-rated or over-rated since it's the one consuming the power. You can only under-rate or over-rate an amplifier since it gives out power. For example, if the spec sheet says the amplifier is rated 80W * 13.8V then you test it and it gives a whopping 100W * 13.8V, then that's under-rated.
Hi sir jhnkvn, as what I have expected ikaw yung magrereply :)
I know electronics since this is my field but nalilito talaga ako sa audio electronics dahil na rin yata ito sa mga contradicting na mga na info nabasa ko. Medyo malabo pa rin po sa akin yung load na part. I don't know if accurate yung nabasa ko but I read somewhere that the rating of the speaker should be equal to the amplifier specially it's load impedance and wattage. Some said the higher the nominal RMS rating of the speaker the better since ito yung wattage na normally magagamit para hindi siya mafry.
May mga iclaclarify din po ako.
First is sa electronics. Parang ganito po yung pagkakaintindi ko kasi.
Example:
At a 12V Power supply, there is a load rated at 10 ohms and 3W SHOULD ONLY be run under 5V so I used a regulator that could regulate 12V to 5V but has a maximum current output of 1A.
Orientation is now: Power supply -> Regulator -> Load
Quote:
V = (I)(R);
I = V/R;
I = 5V / 10ohms;
I = 0.5A
P = (V)(I);
P = 5V x 0.5A;
P = 2.5W
This means that the load would be emitting 2.5W of heat which is safe since 3W is its rating.
IF the load rated at 10 ohms has a power rating of ONLY 2W then the load would be fried that's why we need to add resistor to take the heat.
IF the load would be 2 ohms rated at 13W then the load would not be fried BUT would suck a current of 2.5A thus would heat up the regulator and might shut down or break on some cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me use the info on the audio.
Quote:
Amplifier 60W 2 ohms each channel
P = (V)(I);
60W = 12 x I;
I = 60 / 12;
I = 5A;
A. 2 ohms 70W speaker
P = (V)(I);
70W = 12 x I;
I = 70 / 12;
I = 5.83 A
B. 2 ohms 50W speaker
P = (V)(I);
50W = 12 x I;
I = 50 / 12;
I = 4.16 A
So in this case, the amplifier acts as a regulator but could only supply 5A.
1. Since speakers are load, does it mean that A speaker could handle a lot of heat than B speaker therefore it would have a longer life?
I also have question about the resistance. If an amplifier indicates 2 Ohms per channel, it means that the speaker should be rated at 2 Ohms too to preserve the quality.
2. Will a 2 Ohms speaker have a better sound quality than 8 Ohms speaker connected in a single channel assuming wattage is right?
3. If I connect in series two pieces of 2 Ohms speaker then it would now have a total of 4 Ohms so the quality would not be better than a single 2 Ohms speaker because the current is distributed to each one of them?
4. Same scenario as 3 but they are connected in parallel. The result would be 1 Ohms so.. Will it suck more current thus making the sound quality better but in the expense of breaking/heating up more the amplifier?
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lloydi12345
Hi sir jhnkvn, as what I have expected ikaw yung magrereply :)
I know electronics since this is my field but nalilito talaga ako sa audio electronics dahil na rin yata ito sa mga contradicting na mga na info nabasa ko. Medyo malabo pa rin po sa akin yung load na part. I don't know if accurate yung nabasa ko but I read somewhere that the rating of the speaker should be equal to the amplifier specially it's load impedance and wattage. Some said the higher the nominal RMS rating of the speaker the better since ito yung wattage na normally magagamit para hindi siya mafry.
..................
1. Since speakers are load, does it mean that A speaker could handle a lot of heat than B speaker therefore it would have a longer life?
I also have question about the resistance. If an amplifier indicates 2 Ohms per channel, it means that the speaker should be rated at 2 Ohms too to preserve the quality.
2. Will a 2 Ohms speaker have a better sound quality than 8 Ohms speaker connected in a single channel assuming wattage is right?
3. If I connect in series two pieces of 2 Ohms speaker then it would now have a total of 4 Ohms so the quality would not be better than a single 2 Ohms speaker because the current is distributed to each one of them?
4. Same scenario as 3 but they are connected in parallel. The result would be 1 Ohms so.. Will it suck more current thus making the sound quality better but in the expense of breaking/heating up more the amplifier?
For impedence load matching, I wouldn't worry about it.
Most speaker drivers suitable for cars are 4ohms nominal while some are 3 ohms nominal. However, I have not seen a 2-ohm and lower resistance (bigger load) as a nominal for a driver. Unless you do wiring options (series/parallel) that changes the speaker's impedance and through the use of crossover networks. As most car audio amplifiers are 4-ohm stable and 2-ohm stable this shouldn't be a case of worry.
Now let's go to wattage. Speakers are inefficient in transforming power into sound. But how much do you really need? Truthfully, you're using <30W overall as background listening.. this is around the 85dB range -- a level you can easily converse with your passengers. But what happens when you crank it up? This is where you see that power is over-rated.
Power to decibel conversion is of exponential function. It's not a multiplier. A 100W rating is not twice as loud (+10dB) as a 50W amplifier. Let's say you upgrade your 50W amplifier to a 100W amplifier.. that improvement is simply a +3 decibel improvement. Similarly, a 50W to 200W is simply +6 decibel improvement. A far cry from "twice as loud" of 10dB.
In order to reach that "twice as loud" level, you'll need a whopping 450W difference or going from a 50W amplifier to a 500W amp.
Is higher nominal rating better? In a way, it paints a very crude picture on what a speaker's voice coil can absorb but it isn't a very accurate criteria of doing that. Besides, in the real world setting and inside a car, you won't even reach the power limits of your speakers. You'll do permanent damage to your hearing before you do.
1. Could Speaker A handle more heat than Speaker B? Yes. Does it have a longer life? No. It simply means it has better heat dissipation but speaker life isn't just their voice coils after all. Lower resistance (higher load) will only send more power to your speakers. If your speakers can handle it, sure.. no problem. But the problem is when it can't since you'll be left with a fried voice coil.
2. Sound quality is not correlated with load resistance. All that it means is that it has more power to tap than the 8 ohms speaker.
3-4. Look at Answer #2.
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jhnkvn
For impedence load matching, I wouldn't worry about it.
Most speaker drivers suitable for cars are 4ohms nominal while some are 3 ohms nominal. However, I have not seen a 2-ohm and lower resistance (bigger load) as a nominal for a driver. Unless you do wiring options (series/parallel) that changes the speaker's impedance and through the use of crossover networks. As most car audio amplifiers are 4-ohm stable and 2-ohm stable this shouldn't be a case of worry.
Now let's go to wattage. Speakers are inefficient in transforming power into sound. But how much do you really need? Truthfully, you're using <30W overall as background listening.. this is around the 85dB range -- a level you can easily converse with your passengers. But what happens when you crank it up? This is where you see that power is over-rated.
Power to decibel conversion is of exponential function. It's not a multiplier. A 100W rating is not twice as loud (+10dB) as a 50W amplifier. Let's say you upgrade your 50W amplifier to a 100W amplifier.. that improvement is simply a +3 decibel improvement. Similarly, a 50W to 200W is simply +6 decibel improvement. A far cry from "twice as loud" of 10dB.
In order to reach that "twice as loud" level, you'll need a whopping 450W difference or going from a 50W amplifier to a 500W amp.
Is higher nominal rating better? In a way, it paints a very crude picture on what a speaker's voice coil can absorb but it isn't a very accurate criteria of doing that. Besides, in the real world setting and inside a car, you won't even reach the power limits of your speakers. You'll do permanent damage to your hearing before you do.
1. Could Speaker A handle more heat than Speaker B? Yes. Does it have a longer life? No. It simply means it has better heat dissipation but speaker life isn't just their voice coils after all. Lower resistance (higher load) will only send more power to your speakers. If your speakers can handle it, sure.. no problem. But the problem is when it can't since you'll be left with a fried voice coil.
2. Sound quality is not correlated with load resistance. All that it means is that it has more power to tap than the 8 ohms speaker.
3-4. Look at Answer #2.
Very well answered! Thanks.
So... does that mean I shouldn't really worry about what I buy as long as they fit my needs and budget? I am still worried about destroying the amplifier. You missed that :)
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lloydi12345
Very well answered! Thanks.
So... does that mean I shouldn't really worry about what I buy as long as they fit my needs and budget? I am still worried about destroying the amplifier. You missed that :)
Yep. Needs and budget.
As for destroying your amplifier: I doubt it. Modern amplifiers comes with thermal protection alerts that will automatically shut-down your amplifier when it senses that it's getting dangerous. As long as you find an installer who will set amplifier gains correctly, I won't worry about the amplifier.
As for destroying your speakers: I've already reviewed this in the past. I still stand by my statement that as long as you don't reach the mechanical limitation of a speaker, it'll be fine. The most common mistake is setting amplifier gains incorrectly and this causes your amplifier to throw a clipped waveform to the speaker. Now a clipped waveform is very energy-dense (such as in harmonics, etc.) so if you continue doing that, it'll send enough energy eventually to blow your drivers due to excess energy (your tweeter will be the first to blow without a capacitor or a passive crossover in between to protect it).
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jhnkvn
Yep. Needs and budget.
As for destroying your amplifier: I doubt it. Modern amplifiers comes with thermal protection alerts that will automatically shut-down your amplifier when it senses that it's getting dangerous. As long as you find an installer who will set amplifier gains correctly, I won't worry about the amplifier.
As for destroying your speakers: I've already reviewed this in the past. I still stand by my statement that as long as you don't reach the mechanical limitation of a speaker, it'll be fine. The most common mistake is setting amplifier gains incorrectly and this causes your amplifier to throw a clipped waveform to the speaker. Now a clipped waveform is very energy-dense (such as in harmonics, etc.) so if you continue doing that, it'll send enough energy eventually to blow your drivers due to excess energy (your tweeter will be the first to blow without a capacitor or a passive crossover in between to protect it).
Thanks! crystal clear na po lahat :)
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Thanks sir! Mukhang basa basa muna q ng forum pa b4 aq magproceed gastusin un budget q. Regarding LL sir, doubtful dn aq if kukuha ba q ng LL since its relatively new in d market.
For cadence package kaya sir pasok na un 40k budget q for that? Considering seps, amp, then subs, and if kaya pa cguro mag mono amp? For d subs sir? What marecommend mo brand?
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
How about sir if jbl products? Nabasa q bias ka sa jbl, hehe. And i think ur one of the trusted gurus nman regarding sound setup? For my budget sir para sa e46 q. If magstraight jbl aq? What models of jbl should i be looking for? Seps, amp, subs. Do i need mono amp ba sir? May sound difference ba if mono or if i-bridged lng sa 4 channel amp.
Dame pa umiikot sa isip q, bdw sir im planning to set the car this coming april pag-uwi q manila... Salamat sir sa advised and inputs mo
Re: audio set-up for beginners [continued]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jhnkvn
First thing you need to do is assess your budget. 40,000php for the entire setup including speakers, labor, woodworks, wires, etc.? Or just for the speakers?
Loud and clear is easy -- you simply stick with high efficiency raw drivers (they're called "pro-audio" drivers used in PA systems and concert halls) and then you need a huge box for better efficiency too on the subwoofer.
Forget Focal, you're handling it the wrong and inefficient way. You should be looking at brands such as Cadence, Beyma, and Ciare. If you can spare the cash as it's a midrange level speaker, go for the Beyma directly since the secondhand market for them is there making reselling an easier task in the future. Ciare will be your end-all setup for most conventional people as the Italian speakers are pricey.
The amplifier, more power is better. If you can go for higher-efficiency Class D, that should be better as not to strain your electrical system.
The subwoofer depends on what you want. There's a difference between long-throw subwoofers and long-throw bass. A long-throw bass is simply bass that'll reach very far since the wavelengths are very long.. in other words, these are ported enclosures tuned lower than conventional (mga 28-32hz). Long-throw subwoofers are subwoofers with very good linear xmax or the one-way cone travel a subwoofer makes when reproducing a bass wave (kaya nga long "throw").
* I will not recommend long-throw subwoofers as they are typically expensive. Take my IDMax as an example.. it's a long-throw subwoofer but costs 23,000php. If you can't beat a subwoofer in linear travel, you beat it by numbers -- use inexpensive subwoofer drivers but use multiples of them.
Ok lng dn nman skin if nsa sq side. D q nman sir lagi ipangtatambay un auto. Gusto q lng na paminsan minsan un pde q ilakas for outside listening, not neccessarily very loud. Ok skin un andun pa dn un quality but with that extra bass... Un malambot na bayo...
