Engine design at accessories? kaya na ba?

[JJCarEnthusiast]

i'm referring to the body workmanship of the AMC hammer. the body isn't derived from patrol only the undercarriage.

[uls]

pinoys are good with their hands

Pinoys are good at pounding and bending metals into shapes

and good at working with fiberglass (think body kits)

that's it

it's still a long way from producing a Chery or a Proton

[rhuwrx]

Actually I'm a fan of those hammers, I commend AMC for doing a great job in terms of the workmanship on the body work, but what I am trying to say is that making car bodies is different from making engines, it's a more complex process involving hundreds of components that have to perform precisely and reliably 100% of the time.

[niky]

We have some of the factories we need.

When we were talking to the MVPMAP boys a while back, they said that a local factory was willing to stamp out body panels, if they could assure volume.

Engine deals for one-offs are expensive. Buy a whole lot of them, and we're talking business.

So... locally designed automobile. Possible? Yes. From the ground-up? Not yet... but once you have volume, you can work at localizing parts.

But volume is the key.

What's the volume?

I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was around 40,000 units (for the panel stamping). When we heard that number... we gasped... to sell 40,000 units, you'd need the market clout of Toyota.

Here, we're looking to sell a car built to a low price in the same volumes that Toyota sells, say, Innova Js. Now look at the Chinese cars. They have vans that are half-the-price of an Innova... and pick-ups that are cheap as dirt... pick-ups that ostensibly use Isuzu-based engines.

And we also have Norkis vehicles, which are rebadged and rebuilt Japanese vehicles selling for much less than Toyotas.

Are they outselling Innovas?

No.

Why?

Like uls says, the Filipino buyer is spoiled for choice. They'll bitch and moan given the slightest problems from such well engineered cars as Toyotas and Hondas.

Chinese cars? Give them one confirmed horror story, and they'll stay away in droves. Norkis? One look at the interior, and you'll realize you could do a better job of reconditioning a RHD conversion in your own backyard.

If you want them to buy a local car, you have to convince them of the quality first. Build machines with top-notch fit and finish, and impeccable mechanicals. A PhUV like that would require an original Isuzu powertrain package (last I looked, 500k pesos), a good body (stamped for another 100-200k) and a nice interior (say, 100k worth). Add wheels, battery, fuel tank, glass, etcetera... and you're looking at a Crosswind-class vehicle for about a million bucks.

Do you think that would be successful?

Malaysia only managed to do it with Perouda and Proton by licensing Mitsubishi technology (the best way to go) and leveraging their sales against some of the highest car import taxes in the world.

But after achieving financial success, they had to contend with teething problems switching to local suppliers... many of who could not meet the quality of their Japanese counterparts. And they had a hard time competing... their costs went up, quality went down... they pulled out of some markets (ever wonder why Proton disappeared?)...

But they survived... somewhat.

So... let's follow the Malaysian model? No.

Consider... Malaysia has three times the GDP of the Philippines, with four times the industrial capacity, 1/10th the poverty and half the unemployment. They have a captive market with little other choice but to buy local cars, or pay a huge tax. We can't match those market conditions. Hell... we can't even stop Subic imports from destroying the market base for local dealerships and factories!

A mass-produced, fully Filipino-designed and built car? Pipe dream. Not that I want to see local ventures fail, but I realize that their chances of success are slim.

In motorbikes, things are better... Blaze is relatively successful, and MCX is pioneering in creating their own unique style and designs, which are fully Philippine designed. They use Chinese parts, though... on discussion with some of these people, the consensus is that it would cost too much to make these parts locally... making their products uncompetitive. But at least the motorcycle market is big enough to give them this much autonomy.

The only way we will see a fully Filipino designed and built car is by going the carrozeria way... make a bespoke, limited edition, high-priced luxury car. Start with rebodied existing cars, then branch out to original designs and eventually original mechanicals. (and no... designing engines IS NOT beyond local capabilities... it's just too expensive and time consuming to be worth it except in special cases like this) Even if you get a mere handful of sales, the high price will help support your operation.

But even these have a high failure rate. Exotic car manufacturing is a risky business. Especially considering the global economy is in the crapper, at the moment.

[marg]

The Engine Block. This is just the starting point of building an engine.

Kaya ba ng Pinoy gumawa nito at 0.1mm tolerance to make this thing work flawlessly? Ask any Pinoy fabricator to make this and they will just scratch their heads.


Wala pa dito yung Transmission, which is 2,000% more complicated.

It's so Easy to say that kaya ng Pinoy to build an engine from scratch. But implementing it is an entirely different thing.

Let us be Realistic and not try to kid ourselves.

[carrora]

Actually matagal ng nagmamanufacture ang Asian Transmissions sa Laguna ng Transmission assembly for Mitsubishi. They are capable of making transmissions from design all the way to manufacturing. I believe their plant can also be configured to have a production run for manufacturing engines with very little changes in the set-up, kaya malamang hindi malabong magmanufacture tayo ng sarili nating engine.

[ghosthunter]

One area where the pinoy car builder can have a market is the small volume car manufacturer IF you can create a car for a niche market with guarantee of build quality (at least for the car as a whole minus the engine/tranny). Just buy the engine, tranny and suspension bits from a trusted manufacturer like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc.

What kind of car would it be? ... Well, one area where people tends to spend money is in the exotic or sports car market. So if a company can build exotic looking, high performance cars, there might be a market. And you don't have to build 40,000 units. Just maybe 12 units for the first year would be enough.

What kind of car? Well, you can take a look at the Lotus Elise as an initial model but with more spacious & comfortable interior, more powerful engine and a proper roof. Make sure it has more acceleration than the usual boy racer car and a good match for those EVOs.

[marg]

Actually matagal ng nagmamanufacture ang Asian Transmissions sa Laguna ng Transmission assembly for Mitsubishi. They are capable of making transmissions from design all the way to manufacturing. I believe their plant can also be configured to have a production run for manufacturing engines with very little changes in the set-up, kaya malamang hindi malabong magmanufacture tayo ng sarili nating engine.

Of course ATC is capable of making transmissions and engines, It is an all-Japanese owned company set up locally to provide components for Mitsubishi vehicles.

[JJCarEnthusiast]

those people from asian transmission could share their knowledge to the benefit of the philippines and not for the japs anymore.. hehe

[ghosthunter]

those people from asian transmission could share their knowledge to the benefit of the philippines and not for the japs anymore.. hehe

No one is that charitable. At the end of the day, it is still business.